The traditional thing to do when featuring a new book on a website like The Celtic Star is to speak to the author. In the case of Walfrid & The Bould Bhoys where we have not one or even two but three authors all collaborating to produce a fascinating and completely original book on the birth of Celtic FC, we decided to do something different – get them speaking to each other.

First of all let’s remind you who the three authors are. First up is Liam Kelly who published ‘Our Stories & Our Songs’ in 2015 and followed that up last year with ‘Take Me to Your Paradise’.  Then there’s Matt Corr, a Tour Guide at Celtic Park who published his first book ‘Invincible’ earlier this year, to great critical acclaim among the support.  Then there’s David Potter. The Celtic historian has drawn from a lifetime of following the club to write scores of wonderfully informative Celtic books, which will be valued for generations of Hoops supporters to come, he’s got another one on the way too – all about Celtic’s triumphs in the Scottish Cup over the years and it will be out just before our semi-final with Aberdeen later this year.

In Walfrid & The Bould Bhoys Liam Kelly writes about the stories of the various Celtic founding fathers. We all know about Brother Walfrid but there are other stories of important contributions to the founding of our club and in getting it established. These stories deserved to be told and Liam has done a fine job doing just that.  Matt Corr’s role in Walfrid & The Bould Bhoys was to take us through the first season – every event, drama (it’s Celtic so there are always dramas) and kick of the ball. It’s pacy, informative and entertaining stuff from the Invincible author.  David Potter meanwhile concentrates on the early Celtic Stars and there’s no-one better placed to carry out this remit than the eminent Celtic historian.

So rather than having to do anything at this end, we just got these three Celtic men – all incidentally valued and regular contributors to The Celtic Star – to do what they do best, talk about Celtic. Here’s what happened…

Round Robin with the three Walfrid & the Bould Bhoys authors, Liam Kelly, Matt Corr and David Potter…

1. Matt Corr to David Potter:

Name your Best Celtic XI for the period between 1888 and the outbreak of the First World War, with a brief comment on why you chose each player. And if you could choose only one of those players to play in the current Celtic team, who would that be and why?

David Potter:

 My team is:

Charlie Shaw; Alec McNair & Joe Dodds; ‘Sunny Jim’ Young, Willie Loney & Jimmy Hay; Andy McAtee, Jimmy McMenemy, Jimmy Quinn, Sandy McMahon & Johnny Campbell.

Incidentally, it was always something that amazed me that so many people thought that Shaw, McNair and Dodds played in the same team as Young, Loney and Hay. They didn’t! Jimmy Hay left us in 1911 and Charlie Shaw didn’t join us until 1913. However, they are all in my team!

Matt: Why these guys?

Charlie Shaw – superb goalkeeper and lovely character

Alec McNair – longevity of service speaks for itself

Joe Dodds – very hard-working left-back, able to attack and defend

James ‘Sunny Jim’ Young – grimly determined and totally committed to the cause

Willie Loney – “No Road This Way!”

James Hay – captain courageous who led by example

Andy McAtee – he of the billiard table legs, the lightning speed and the cannonball shot. Not in my original selection of early heroes only because there were so many others, however, Andy was the best right-winger

Jimmy McMenemy – “all-time great” is a sometimes-overused cliché, but not in the case of Napoleon (who was featured on The Celtic Star last night)

Jimmy Quinn – the most talked about man in Britain. Not Lloyd George, not King Edward VII but Croy’s one and only Jimmy Quinn

Sandy McMahon – the Duke, the erudite, elegant and distinguished leader of the Celtic forwards

Johnny Campbell – they always said that McMahon was just a little bit incomplete if Campbell wasn’t there as well

If I only had one to pick, it would be Jimmy Quinn because Celtic are and must be about goalscorers and goalscoring.

Matt Corr: Tremendous answer, David. I called it wrong. I had a hunch you would have gone for Napoleon as your ‘one pick’. Thanks for that.

David Potter: Napoleon was a very close second, but Jimmy remains irreplaceable.

 2. David Potter to Liam Kelly

 David Potter: OK, my questions about the Founding Fathers are: “When was it decided, do you think, that Celtic should be a club open to all?” and “To what extent did the new Celtic club learn from Hibs about how NOT to run a football team?”

Liam Kelly: Initially, our founding fathers and first players were Catholic to a man and almost entirely of Irish extraction, if not born in Ireland itself. That’s not to say that the club was necessarily exclusive at the outset, after all a lot of Catholic footballers wouldn’t have had the opportunities to play at many Scottish establishment clubs in those days, Queen’s Park for example. That said, Celtic had an unambiguous Irish Catholic identity at birth and, naturally, would look to that community for players. The club’s identity provided it with an ability to capture the interest of great Catholic footballers too, whereas those from outside of the Irish diaspora may have required more convincing to join a new club.

Celtic’s first circular was issued in January 1888. It appears to be quite inward looking:

“The main objective of the club is to supply the East End conferences of the St. Vincent De Paul Society with funds for the maintenance of the “Dinner Tables” of our needy children in the Missions of St Mary’s, Sacred Heart, and St. Michael’s. Many cases of sheer poverty are left unaided through lack of means. It is therefore with this principle object that we have set afloat the “Celtic”, and we invite you as one of our ever-ready friends to assist in putting our new Park in proper working order for the coming football season.

“We have already several of the leading Catholic football players of the West of Scotland on our membership list. They have most thoughtfully offered to assist in the good work.

“We are fully aware that the “elite” of football players belong to this City and suburbs, and we know that from there we can select a team which will be able to do credit to the Catholics of the West of Scotland as the Hibernians have been doing in the East.

 “Again, there is also the desire to have a large recreation ground where our Catholic young men will be able to enjoy the various sports which will build them up physically, and we feel sure we will have many supporters with us in this laudable object.”

I think we can see tangible evidence that Celtic was an inclusive club from its second season. In 1890, Celtic would complete the signing of their first non-Catholic, a goalkeeper named Jamie Bell. At that time, the goalkeeping position was becoming difficult to fill and it was beneficial to look beyond the Irish community for footballing talent. One year later, Bell was replaced by Orange Order member, Thomas Duff, who was nicknamed ‘The Cowlairs Orangeman!’ This suggests that the club was, without doubt, open to all as of then.

Willie Maley further describes the psyche of the Celtic committee, who stayed beyond the 1889 AGM, in his book, The Story of the Celtic (published in 1938):

“We have always been a cosmopolitan club since our second year, and we have included in our list of players a Swede, a Jew and a Mohammedan. Much has been made in certain quarters about our religion, but for 48 years we have played a mixed team, and some of the greatest Celts we have had did not agree with us in our religious beliefs, although we have never at any time hidden what these are. Men of the type of McNair, Hay, Lyon, Buchan, Cringan, the Thomsons, or Paterson soon found out that broadmindedness, which is the real stamp of the good Christian, existed to its fullest at Celtic Park, where a man was judged by his football alone.”

In terms of the second part to your question, you touch on something very crucial to the success of Celtic. Indeed, for as much as Hibernian inspired the formation of Celtic to a large extent, it was perhaps the things we did better than our Edinburgh counterparts which ensured Celtic became the club it is today.

Hibernian were founded by members of The Catholic Young Men’s Society in 1875. The Society’s Edinburgh branch insisted that Hibernian players were practising Catholics. This policy led to the club being referenced by some as Scotland’s first sectarian club.

Though a club of Irish Catholic heritage, there was no such exclusive policy at Celtic Park. As mentioned above, the club had non-Catholic players as of 1890 and was also more subtle in terms of choosing the name ‘Celtic’. This was something that incensed Hibernian in the early days, indeed, their secretary, John McFadden, wrote an open letter to the media after the two sides met for the first time in August 1888. His letter slammed the name ‘Celtic’ as not being Irish enough.

McFadden said:

“Patriotic Irishmen, truly, the Celtic and its supporters; patriotic Irishmen indeed who, in order to raise the name of Celts – a name which may cover Welsh, Highland Scotch, French, and all the nations of that family – dealt as they thought, and by means which are apparent to everybody, a death blow to the Hibernian club.”

The Scottish Umpire also quoted McFadden as saying;

“Hibernian do not pretend to be anything else than true Irishmen; who are not ashamed, but proud, to wear the green, and who don’t wear a white shirt and edge the collar with green so that it requires a microscope to detect the colour at all.”

So, I’d say that Celtic knew when to push their Irish identity but could be more subtle to appeal to a wider audience as the years rolled by. Another key point is that Celtic were willing to be more ruthless than Hibs. We wanted the best players in the country and achieved this by somewhat ‘underhand’ means such as offering proprietorship of public houses in order to attract star players, which put numbers on the gate and guaranteed success.

Ultimately, the men behind Celtic showed more ambition, were more streetwise and certainly more inclusive than those who ran Hibernian. And when it did come to expressing the Irishness of the club, Celtic took a very political stance in the early years and stood out above Hibernian by getting the endorsement of real top brass Irish patriots. We invited Michael Davitt, a Gerry Adams-type figure of the day, to lay the first sod of turf at Celtic Park and then named him Club Patron. We also welcomed an MP in TD Sullivan, to play his popular rousing rebel song, ‘God Save Ireland’

Celtic certainly didn’t do things by half, and ultimately trounced Hibernian in every department.

3. Liam Kelly to Matt Corr

Liam Kelly: My questions to Matt. Which match do you think was Celtic’s best in that very first season and why? And where does the club’s first season rank in terms of importance in Celtic’s history?

The Sons were one of only five winners of the trophy at that time and had been favourites to beat Hibernian in the final two years earlier. They had a tremendous record on their own ground, albeit Celts had won narrowly in a friendly earlier in the season.

In 1891, Dumbarton would become the first winners of the Scottish League, a title they shared with the original Rangers after a drawn decider, although they were ahead on goal difference, goal average and the head-to-head (none of these criteria were used at that time). Dumbarton would then become the first outright Scottish champions the following season (a feat they have never repeated incidentally). So, for a new club to go there and win so convincingly was a tremendous achievement and sent a huge message out that the Bould Bhoys were here to stay. 

Here is an extract from Walfrid & The Bould Bhoys which covers that match, for context.

The following Saturday, 12 January 1889, would be the biggest match in Celtic’s short history, as they travelled to face Dumbarton in the semi-final of the Scottish Cup, a quite incredible achievement for a club in its first season. The game would be played on their rival’s home ground, famously described by Willie Maley as “Fatal Boghead,” such was the dominance they enjoyed on their own patch. The Bhoys could claim a perfect record there, however, having won 2-1 in the first-ever meeting of the two clubs back in September 1888, thanks to a double from Neil McCallum.

As had been the case in September, Dumbarton would field two players who would later (and before in one case) play their own part in Celtic’s history, goalkeeper James Bell and centre-forward Johnny Madden. The chapter covering that calendar month provides the supporting detail for those players.

Dumbarton had serious Scottish Cup pedigree. Formed in December 1872, they first appeared in the final of the country’s most prestigious football competition in April 1881, losing 3-1 to Queen’s Park at Kinning Park, as Dr John Smith wrote his way into the history books with the first hat-trick to be scored in a Scottish Cup final, the amateurs notching up their fifth success in the opening eight years

The same two sides would contest the 1881/82 final, 12 months later, the Spiders again coming out on top, this time defeating Dumbarton 4-1 in a replay at First Cathkin, following a 2-2 draw in March.

The Sons of the Rock would finally gain some revenge on Saturday, 3 February 1883, when they beat the defending champions 3-1 at Boghead in the following season’s quarter-final. They would then go on to claim their first national success by defeating Vale of Leven 2-1 in the final at Second Hampden.

Dumbarton would reappear at the same venue on Saturday, 12 February 1887 for the 1886/87 final. Their opponents that day would be Hibernian, a change in the balance of power perhaps illustrated by the fact that the two beaten semi-finalists the previous month had been the clubs who dominated the first decade of the competition, Queen’s Park and Vale of Leven. Hibernian had been knocking on the door of their first Scottish Cup final, having lost out at the semi-final stage in each of the previous three seasons.

They would finally strike gold at the fourth attempt with a 3-1 victory over Vale of Leven, having earlier beaten rivals Heart of Midlothian by a 5-1 scoreline – which we would see again in the final of 2012 – to become the first side from eastern Scotland to contest a Scottish Cup final.

There had then been an anxious wait as the club awaited the outcome of an appeal by Vale of Leven over a suggestion of illegal payments being made to their star player of that semi-final. The name of the player involved was none other than ‘Darling’ Willie Groves, later to shine for Celtic. Three days before the final, Hibernian were cleared of any wrongdoing by the Scottish Football Association panel, albeit that peculiar ‘not proven’ verdict and a casting vote was required to do so. A further appeal by Vale of Leven was subsequently withdrawn at the last minute, bringing that process to an end.

Dumbarton would start strong favourites on the day, whilst the bulk of the 15,000 crowd were rooting for the ‘Irishmen.’ The Sons would score first, through Aitken, early in the second half, before Phil Clarke equalised for Hibernian. The football gods would then conspire to ensure that the man at the centre of the controversy had the final say, quite literally, Groves waltzing through the Dumbarton defence to win the cup for Edinburgh’s Little Ireland community, and many more ex-patriots across Scotland. No-one would have known then, however, that their 1887 Scottish Cup final success would have huge implications for victors Hibernian and another, as yet unnamed, club which would spring up to support the Irish community in Scotland later that year, some 45 miles to the west of Leith.

As previously discussed, that would have been the subject of much acrimony long before Celtic took the field at Boghead in front of 6,000 spectators for their own date with Scottish Cup destiny on Saturday, 12 January 1889. Two of Hibernian’s cup-winning heroes against Dumbarton that afternoon, Jimmy McLaren and Willie Groves, would now line up in the striped jerseys of Celtic, as would a duo who would repeat that success with Renton, 12 months later, James Kelly and Neil McCallum, and a further four players plucked from the Edinburgh club during 1888, Paddy Gallagher, Mick McKeown, Mick Dunbar and Johnny Coleman. Indeed, it was more difficult to pick a Celtic player who did not snugly fit into one of those three categories, as they lined up for the huge match as follows:

John Kelly; Paddy Gallagher & Mick McKeown; Willie Maley, James Kelly & James McLaren; Neil McCallum, Mick Dunbar, Willie Groves, Tom Maley & Johnny Coleman.

As it transpired, the semi-final would turn out to be much more comfortable for Celtic than had been widely anticipated, goals scored five minutes into the game and just before the interval by Willie Groves and Mick Dunbar had pretty much assured the Bhoys’ progression to the Hampden final by half time. The goal of the game arrived just after the hour, Groves running virtually the length of the pitch with Dewar trailing helplessly in his wake before beating James Bell for the second time. Dunbar then secured his own brace to make it 4-0 before, rather poignantly, Johnny Madden, who had played for Celtic in its first-ever game in May 1888, then apparently reneged on a promise to join the club permanently during that summer but who would later wear the green-and-white colours again with great distinction, pulled a late consolation goal back for his hometown team.

In the other semi-final, played at First Cathkin on that same afternoon, 3rd Lanarkshire Rifle Volunteers beat holders Renton 2-0 to reach their third Scottish Cup final, having lost the 1876 and 1878 deciders to Queen’s Park at Hamilton Crescent then to Vale of Leven at First Hampden. Thus, the one certainty was that there would be a new name on the trophy come the 1888/89 final the following month, a sixth club to join the illustrious roll of honour, as follows:

            Queen’s Park (8 wins)

            Vale of Leven (3 wins)

            Dumbarton

            Renton (2 wins)

            Hibernian

Your second question around the importance of that first season is an excellent one and my answer is “As important as it gets!”

For me, the successful history of Celtic Football Club all started with the arrival of James Kelly in the summer of 1888, a huge statement of intent and the key to the attraction of the other ‘Irish-minded’ star footballers of the day. Taking the key players from the two previous Scottish Cup-winning sides – Hibernian and Renton – then had the dual effect of strengthening Celts whilst weakening the main opposition. Neither of those clubs would be able to compete with the increasingly powerful and influential Celtic as the world changed and with the introduction of professionalism, the other strong clubs of the day such as Queen’s Park, Vale of Leven and Dumbarton would all eventually succumb as Celtic became the dominant force in Scottish football by the turn of the century.

The second factor there was how the new players gelled quickly to take Celts all the way to a first Scottish Cup final within eight months of our first game, seeing off Dumbarton in the process as mentioned above. By all accounts, it was a final we should have won (how familiar does that sound!!) but nevertheless, to achieve such progression in our first season was unprecedented and set the bar for what was to follow.

We would win the trophy within three years and we’ve pretty much never stopped winning it since!

* Walfrid & The Bould Bhoys is available now from Celticstarbooks.com, the official Celtic stores and Amazon.